D4D Diesel for USA?

[bronsin]

I would have NO problem whatsoever with a normally aspirated diesel. I had a 240D for years and that was a fourspeed. Very low acceleration but you adapt. Averaged 28 mpg and that was city driving 75% of the time. 20 gallon tank too which gave 600+ miles on the highway. Sweet! Fuel was 79 a gallon too.

[Lewis]

Realistically the Japanese may have a point. Most Americans would never accept the Yaris as a family car and therefore would be unwilling to pay a family car price for what a Euro spec Yaris would cost. So we get the cheap decontented one. All the manufacturers seem to have concluded that about the USA market- look at the new "improved" $15,000 Jetta.

It may well take the same $9/gallon gas (which we all hope is well into the future) to get people over here to pay $20,000 for a nicely equipped diesel Yaris. Even Mini which seems to be able to command those kind of prices for a small car hasn't brought over their diesel model.

I think we can all thank Oldsmobile for ruining the reputation of diesel car engines here in the USA. Most Americans probably think diesel engines are inferior so why pay more for something that they think is worse?

Education is expensive but ignorance is even more costly!

[2009BBPliftback]

I think if a major automotive player like Toyota jumped on the diesel bandwagon it may be good for the overall diesel sales in the USA. But it's obvious Toyota has it's heart set on hybrid technologies.. Until that becomes cheaper I will continue to drive my thrifty yaris.

[Lewis]

Toyota will sell what people will buy- simple as that. I see very few Prius hybrids in Europe and many many Toyota diesel cars. I think the key factor is that Toyota is in the business of making money not any particular type of car.

[2009BBPliftback]

Now I know the associated costs would be ridiculous but does anyone know if it would even be possible to get a left hand drive d4d from say Germany into the USA?

[bronsin]

And legally drive it here? Id say imposseris. Maybe there are diesel ECHOS/Yaris's in Canada?

[Lewis]

I think all it would actually take is one major Japanese manufacturer to bring in a clean diesel hatchback and the others would follow suit when they see it sell because they all have the engines "on the shelf" so they'd only have to EPA certify them to bring them here. Acura was very close to doing that with the TSX if you believe the automotive press.

Volkswagen just doesn't have a good enough reputation for quality to break into the mainstream USA market with their diesels. If VW could build a Golf diesel to run as reliably as my Yaris with a competitive purchase price (which they presently don't have courtesy of their greedy dealerships that jack up the prices on their already overpriced diesel line) that's what I'd be in right now.

I just don't have the patience to be visiting their arrogant corrupt dealers on a regular basis to rebuy their crappy parts as they fail like all my friends with VWs do- not to mention what that does to the economics of fuel savings with the diesel engine.

I actually had a Rabbit diesel in the 1970s so I know from experience what the joy of the VW ownership experience entails.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by Lewis

I actually had a Rabbit diesel in the 1970s so I know from experience what the joy of the VW ownership experience entails.

I was in the market for one of those in 1980. They had an unsold one for $8500. Which is an unconscionable ammount of money for the time. I offered $7500 and they wouldnt go for it. Bought a Subaru Hatchabck instead for $4600 tax and all. Those were the days.

NEVER in a million years would the VW have been CE against the Suby.

So what happened with the VW Diesel that was so awfull?

[Lewis]

Originally Posted by bronsin

I was in the market for one of those in 1980. They had an unsold one for $8500. Which is an unconscionable ammount of money for the time. I offered $7500 and they wouldnt go for it. Bought a Subaru Hatchabck instead for $4600 tax and all. Those were the days.

NEVER in a million years would the VW have been CE against the Suby.

So what happened with the VW Diesel that was so awfull?

----------Back then BOTH the Oldsmobile and VW diesels were actually hastily converted gasoline motors lashed up to address the first big fuel crisis of the 1970's and the gas lines that formed due to the Arab oil boycott. These junkers probably are why Americans have such negative views of diesel automotive power. In both cases head gaskets couldn't contain the higher compression of the diesel combustion and they popped headgaskets over and over until the heads eventually warped, causing radiator fluid to leak into the engine oil which lead to complete engine failure.

My Rabbit diesel actually blew a head gasket about once a month!

Also the quality of the diesel fuel was not pure as the tractor-trailer motors which were the market for diesel then could pretty much tolerate impurities due to their size and strength that would disable automotive diesels . All and all a perfect storm of negativity for automotive diesel power trains existed in the US back then. The only plus I guess was that diesel cost less than gas in those days in the US.

In Europe the history of diesel automotive was written by Mercedes and Peugoet which had rock solid quality in their simple, durable sedans. Their diesels in the 40's-70's were easily good for 500K miles so Europeans are used to thinking of diesels as higher quality engines than gasoline engines in cars I think.

I bought one of these VWs so as not to have wait on the then present gasoline lines as there was plenty of diesel fuel around to power the trucks.

So basically the US market automotive diesels back then were time bombs and VW also had major quality problems with electrical systems and even rust issues as well with their then new front drive Rabbits. The icing on the cake were arrogant and crooked dealers who had really no experience having to fix cars and satisfy customers since the previous Beetles ran forever with very little maintenance and repairs.

[attickt]

even if it did come to the U.S and is oober fuel eficiant U.S gas prices are on a sky rocket and its winter here, diesel is close to $4 a gallon where i live and gas is on average $3.10-$3.24 a gallon wait till summer hits gas will be 4.15 a gallon and diesel will be close to $5

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by Lewis

Realistically the Japanese may have a point. Most Americans would never accept the Yaris as a family car and therefore would be unwilling to pay a family car price for what a Euro spec Yaris would cost. So we get the cheap decontented one. All the manufacturers seem to have concluded that about the USA market- look at the new "improved" $15,000 Jetta.

It may well take the same $9/gallon gas (which we all hope is well into the future) to get people over here to pay $20,000 for a nicely equipped diesel Yaris. Even Mini which seems to be able to command those kind of prices for a small car hasn't brought over their diesel model.

I think we can all thank Oldsmobile for ruining the reputation of diesel car engines here in the USA. Most Americans probably think diesel engines are inferior so why pay more for something that they think is worse?

Education is expensive but ignorance is even more costly!

I don't think many Americans consider a Yaris to be a family car. I seriously doubt that most would consider the car sporty. It is what it is, inexpensive transportation.

If Toyota offered a diesel option that got 70mpg for an extra 2k, I would have been all over it, regardless of the power it offered compared to it's gas competitor. But you'll never see that option in a Toyota parking lot when right next to that pretty line of Yarii, you'll see a shiny Prius alternative right across from it. Make no mistake ... they did attempt to upsell me to the then 23k Prius.

It just makes no sense for them to even build a Prius if they offer a 70mpg diesel option, even if they sold it at 5k over the gas option. How could they offer a car that cost less and got 20mpg more than a car that requires batteries that eventually have to be replaced?

They can't and they won't, so long as there is a decent profit margin in the Prius.

[Lewis]

Originally Posted by Zaphod

I don't think many Americans consider a Yaris to be a family car. I seriously doubt that most would consider the car sporty. It is what it is, inexpensive transportation.

If Toyota offered a diesel option that got 70mpg for an extra 2k, I would have been all over it, regardless of the power it offered compared to it's gas competitor. But you'll never see that option in a Toyota parking lot when right next to that pretty line of Yarii, you'll see a shiny Prius alternative right across from it. Make no mistake ... they did attempt to upsell me to the then 23k Prius.

It just makes no sense for them to even build a Prius if they offer a 70mpg diesel option, even if they sold it at 5k over the gas option. How could they offer a car that cost less and got 20mpg more than a car that requires batteries that eventually have to be replaced?

They can't and they won't, so long as there is a decent profit margin in the Prius.

I agree 100% and wish it was different. As I mentioned the only thing that would have Toyota bringing in a diesel on the Yaris is if Mazda brings their diesel in on the MZ2 or Nissan brings it in on their Versa and THEY take sales away from the Prius.

[attickt]

Originally Posted by Zaphod

I don't think many Americans consider a Yaris to be a family car. I seriously doubt that most would consider the car sporty. It is what it is, inexpensive transportation.

If Toyota offered a diesel option that got 70mpg for an extra 2k, I would have been all over it, regardless of the power it offered compared to it's gas competitor. But you'll never see that option in a Toyota parking lot when right next to that pretty line of Yarii, you'll see a shiny Prius alternative right across from it. Make no mistake ... they did attempt to upsell me to the then 23k Prius.

It just makes no sense for them to even build a Prius if they offer a 70mpg diesel option, even if they sold it at 5k over the gas option. How could they offer a car that cost less and got 20mpg more than a car that requires batteries that eventually have to be replaced?

They can't and they won't, so long as there is a decent profit margin in the Prius.

I agree totaly, as well do i agree with an earlier comment most americans are misinformed of diesels, most people i talk to think that diesel engines are dirtie, burn durtier are less reliable, more expensive to maintain or modify etc.

along side with the prius comment, americans (i am american) are dumb enough to buy bottled water (water is free!) limited to very few sercumstances this is a stupid concept, so that should speak for its self. it sounds better, its easier, just like the prius... why not fool americans into thinking they are getting a better car then they realy are and get an extra 5k outa them every few years for battries aposed to offering a cleaner more efficiant combustion engine... most americans are to ignorant to see a good thing coming and to blind to see a bad thing in front of them. unfortunetly the d4 may never see our shores and thats a shame it would bring a whole new level to the yaris platform and tuners in genral.

contraer to my point above in the long run the prius hybrid platform may be just as cost effective as a diesel engine in the U.S judging by gas prices in the long run i think they would break even however the diesel = compared to the hybrid lol

[bronsin]

Gee I used to think the VW diesel was the car of my dreams. I was a Beetle man for many years and would have been terribly disappointed. But maybe your car had some unique problem that made the HGs blow?

My 240D was the nuts. I olny sold it because I couldnt work on it anymore and now I cant drive a standard.

[Lewis]

The VW diesel can still be the car of your dreams Bronsin. The first generation was a nightmare but thanks to test drivers like myself the VW turbo diesel is now a very good motor indeed IMO. I remember those days well and those diesels (VW and Oldsmobile) were just not ready for prime time. If my car had been an exception diesel cars would probably be selling well in the US like they do in the rest of the world.

I still would never go near another VW product (and I drove nothing but VWs for the first 40 years of my life) due to their horrible quality and terrible dealers but that is not a diesel specific opinion- it is a opinion about VWs and this a a Toyota discussion group so no more from me on that.

Suffice it to say if Toyota brought over their diesel Yaris to the US I'd be at my dealer in a heartbeat to buy one!

[bronsin]

Yeah but arent those VW diesels like $30K?

I mean, I need cheap reliable transportation so I can buy motorcycles!

I would settle for a $15K iQ with the one liter gas engine!

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Yeah but arent those VW diesels like $30K?

I mean, I need cheap reliable transportation so I can buy motorcycles!

I would settle for a $15K iQ with the one liter gas engine!

I don't know, they're cheapest car right now is the Golf, right? And that starts at 18k for a 2 door gasser, 4k higher than the Yaris gasser.

The only TDI golf they have is the 4 door, which starts at 23.5k. Their gas 4 door starts at 19.5K. So it looks like they call the 4 door a 1.5k upgrade, which would put their additional cost for the diesel at 4k.

VW's are just expensive to begin with and they're just not after the mainstream market, which is why they'll never be the ones to make diesels popular in the US.

But you're right, the motorcycle really is the way to go if you can swing it ... it sure is my "daily driver" during the summer and throughout most of the spring and fall. My sportster gets 50mpg consistently. I used to get in the 58-60 range before I put performance parts on it and ran it as such. That's not bad for roughly 4k altogether for the top end gasket kit, engine guard, highway pegs, mini-apes, OEM forward controls, brake light extensions, saddlebag bars, oversized saddle bags, two-up seats and a sissy bar. All I really need now is a larger gas tank and I'll call it a tourster ;)

[bronsin]

And the thing is, its one thing to get those numbers off the internet. Its quite another to go to an actual dealer and see the prices in the showroom. "But...that car is $23.5k on Edmunds. You dont have anything less than $26k...."